Runner Triathlete News [ return ] From Message Olen   1/24/2003 17:47:38 Subject: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Hey, the national ranking are posted on the national site if anyone is interested in how they did against everyone in the USA. shawn smith   1/27/2003 08:50:20 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: the national rankings have an interesting exclusion, which according to the usat website was in place last year. the results of amateur-elite waves are excluded from the rankings. of course this 'rule' wasn't applied consistently for races in our region. if you raced in the elite wave of tri-america, capital of texas, cinco ranch or gatorman then your performance is excluded from the rankings. the fastest non-elite wave finisher is credited with the victory for ranking purposes. however, the elite waves of tinman and y100 boerne are included in the rankings. i wonder if anyone else noticed this "rule"? i understand the sentiment behind the exclusion, as explained on the website, just don't agree with it. -Tex 1/27/2003 10:18:13 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: I haven't checked the rankings yet, but I did notice the piece written about the 'elite amateur' wave exclusion. I guess that USAT is also going to make ranking exculsions for the first wave of each race. So, for some of Jack Weiss' races, that means that he master's folks won't be ranked since they get the clean water, and open roads. For others, that means that the men's under 30 categories won't get ranked since they get to start first, as they usually do at USAT Nationals. I guess it's just an attempt to 'level the playing' field, but using USAT's arguement, it won't be truely level until every race has a mass start like Ironman. I can't say that I agree with the sentiment either. Bob Sigerson   1/31/2003 10:19:20 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: I checked with USAT and they said if the results were submitted without showing an elite wave, all the athletes were counted. If the race director knows the rules, an elite wave should be submitted as such not be counted. If results are submitted without the elite wave shown, it can be likened to a person drafting the whole race without being caught. Bob Sigerson Sebastian 2/01/2003 14:21:40 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Bob: I don't understand what link you draw between the elite wave and drafting. It seems to me that is a good Idea to start the faster people first. I really hate it when the classically slow waves are started ahead of typically faster ones (won't go into details not to offend anyone with generalizations) I also think is very unsafe to do so. Excluding the elite waves in amateur races from the rankings does us all a disfavor and makes the rankings less miningful. Bob Sigerson   2/02/2003 18:08:11 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Sorry, I sometimes know what I want to say but lose it in translation. What I was try to say was that the Race Directors in question knew the rules(one was on the USAT board) before they held their races and had an elite wave, anyway. The analogy was the breaking of one rule and covering it up in the handling of the submitted results is like the cronic drafter not being caught. I don't mind the elite wave at all. That way they don't swim over me. I also don't think it gives them any advantage. It also allows people who are aging up to keep competitve with the younger age groups in which they were competitive the year before. shawn smith   2/03/2003 08:45:02 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: i voiced my opposition re: the elite wave exclusion to USAT and was informed there's more exclusions on the way for 2003. they will also exclude the results of clydesdale and athena waves from the national rankings! any national ranking system is going to have it's flaws, but i think these exclusions just further erode the tenuous quality of the rankings. non-elite wave finishers get a big bump up in their ranking points, while elite, clydesdale and athena waves are thrown out. i get the impression usat hasn't had much feedback on this issue. if the age group commission doesn't hear from the membership, these exclusions will continue and be expanded in 2003. there's a link for the commission on the usat website. -Tex   2/03/2003 09:39:58 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Shawn, I also sent my feedback to USAT. I doubt that they have received very much feedback either. The reply that I got was that they seemed more concerned with leveling the field within an age group rather than between the overall leaders of the races, regardless of the age group. It makes some sense, but when you look at the Capital of Texas triathlon from 2002, a 93 point race, the overall 'winner' finished 10 minutes behind the first amateur. I can't see a wave start of any type making that much difference. I'd also like to know just how many people there were that complained about the inclusion of the elite waves in the rankings. I doubt that it was very many. The ranking system will always be somewhat flawed unless everyone competes head to head a couple of times a year. In my opinion, excluding certain waves only adds an additional degree of complication to the ranking system. Chris Leon   2/13/2003 09:03:08 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: I think the whole ranking system needs to be re-done. It needs to be structrued like MTB or Cycling. Have different levels within each age group. MTB have begginers, sport, and expert classes. Within each of those groups they have age groups. If USAT did this then there would be less confusion on and elite wave (which I like). Each one of the races would have the Expert class start first, then sport, and last beginner. Each person could race head to head with their friend no matter how old they are. After all it is about having fun and competing with friends you train with. judiced   2/14/2003 08:10:33 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: I agree with Chris. Triathlon should have categories like cycling further broken down to juniors (under 18), open, masters, grandmasters, etc ... There are several flaws with the age group system. First of all, anyone 18-39 is on equal footing. It is irrelevant, to me, to win the 25-29 age group, if a 23 year old and several 30 somethings were faster than me. Another example, look at the 40-44 age group. If a guy in this group is in the top three he gets moved up, then the next 40-44 gets top masters, then the third place 40 year old "wins" his age group. I have seen each of these two scenarios often. I believe winning a Cat 1 or 2 or whatever triathlon would be more relevant and gratifying. Of course this is all moot, the age group system is so firmly established globally that I don't see it changing anytime soon. dave judice speedy 2/14/2003 09:06:39 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: I agree, in that I don't care how I do in my age group. I want to try to beat everyone in a race. Young, old, or in between. But other's don't think like me, so that's where the AG stuff comes in. The current system should keep everyone happy, since I can check my overall ranking and others can check their AG ranking. P 1 Next Page>>