Runner Triathlete News [ return ] From Message Chris   2/18/2003 12:54:00 Subject: RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Maybe we can start a grass movement to change to ranking. Olen 2/18/2003 13:08:19 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Chris, we talked about ranking on the dallastrigeeks website last summer and someone mentioned the same thing about making the rankings more like cycling. I am not fast enough to compete for overall at very many races. So I look for my standings in the AG. But I do agree that the rankings really don't paint a picture of who's the best. The fastest person in the region should be ranked no. 1 and so on. There should be run off races, like the playoffs. I'd like to see some change started. But I also agree that AG are so much embedded in the USA and Europe that you will never live to see it changed. Chris   2/18/2003 13:18:06 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Never say never Bob Sigerson   2/21/2003 11:36:21 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Let me throw this out before I send it to Lance as a letter to the editor. I believe the only almost totally fair way to do the rankings, as presently structured, is to have everone, male and female, competing against a standard. The regional standards would be those swim, bike, run paces done by the fastest amateurs in the region. This is my thinking but the standards could be any set anywhere. The system would be like the point system for the decathalon in the Olympics, where the competitors are competing against the standards of the world records. This would take out the fortuitous finding a race where the top competitors are not in attendance. An example of this is having the regional sprint distance championship in Guymon, OK. How many Dallas athletes would sign up for a 500m/12m/5K race 441 miles away? This actually happened last year at DeGray Lake. Noone from SE LA, Houston, San Antonio showed up an the winning times were rather slow for the race. Also how many people are going to travel 3 to 5 hours for a 1/4m/10/2. This happened in Lake Charles with under 75 competitors. The Lake Charles series has been cancelled this year. I can say that if I only competed in races against Brandon Marsh or Bruce Gennari, my ranking points would be 3 to 6 points lower than those I got this year. I venture to say that all of you who read this would have the same results competing against these two. Why am I proposing this when I would not receive the points to my advantage? Because the system of running against the other males and females in a race should be only for that race and recognition, by hardware and podium for that day and that day alone. It is patently unfair if I, at 65, would be the only master travelling to Guymon, OK to receive 95 points in a 106 point race because I finished be another triathlete from the area who was only 5 minutes faster. That is what is happening now and will continue if the race leading male's and female's time are used to figure the rankings. I can tell you not many of the people in my club have much faith in the rankings as they are now done. Bob Sigerson Olen 2/21/2003 13:36:00 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: I agree with you Bob, sounds good. I've thought about that before. But the same distance will yield different times. wind, hills, rain, would make a distance more difficult. You can't say a certain time for a certain distance. You will run into opposition, because some people think that part of racing is who shows up. there is one more thing to remember, not too many people care about the rankings. I found out after going to the regional meetings last month that not too many people care to be a part of the USAT. They just want to race and don't pay attention. Look at how many people participate in this discussion, it the same FEW people. There are 6000 annual members, there should thousands of people voicing their oppinions instead of the same 5. Don't use DeGray as your example, My woman won that race! Bob Sigerson   2/21/2003 15:18:26 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Olen, I took what you are saying about the courses into consideration when I was doing my thinking and it really doesn't matter. If, for example, we use Brandon Marsh's times as the standard, if they were on a hilly course and he does a flat course and he beat those times, he gets 105 or whatever percent over the standard he originally set for the year. The only place it would go wrong is if the course was measured wrong or shortened because of weather and the shortening was not reported with the results. I only used DeGray because our local female master beat the region's masters winner head to head but lost the title because she did not and could not justify travelling 8 hours to DeGray from Mandeville, LA and stay overnight for a sprint triathlon. I was not picking on your woman as she and everyone else won legitimately as the system is presently configured. When this thing will finally get resolved is when someone like Lauren Maule or Brandon Marsh gets injured and someone races in three high point races and wins overall and is 10 to 15 minutes slower than they are. Bob Sigerson chris hunt 2/22/2003 19:27:05 RE: degray lake IP: Logged Message: Bob, I will be happy to inform Barry Knight(the winner of the Degray lake sprint) when I see him at Gulf Coast this year that his winning time was so slow, especially in light of his being a IT all american again this year(listed as one of the top ten North Americans in his age group for both tri and Du). My own time was slow and I finished 10th overall after flatting, crashing, and riding the last 8 miles on a flat, prior to that I was in 3rd, right behind Brian Hasenbauer. I am sure that Barry will be sorry to disapoint you with his uncaracteristic slow finishing time. Bob Sigerson   2/23/2003 12:09:24 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Chris, as I have said before people take one word and blow the concept out of the water. What was meant was all in relation to times by the Brandon Marsh's , Bruce Gennari's, Lauren Maule's of the world. I'm fast in relation to some in my age group but in relation to you or Barry Knight, I'm slow. I should have put "slow" in quotations or relative slower than such and such a race so the concept would not have been buried. No way was I trying to offend as I am doing these things also so I know the effort and athleticism to do these times. If Barry beats Brandon regularly here is a double mea culpa because I did not check. What I am proposing, though, is a system where someone who cannot beat Brandon wins the overall ranking title because they win a couple of sprint races in far away places worth a ton of points. By the way, I have friends who win local races with 500 competitors who cannot be Brandon because their times are slower but they aren't slow either. The only reason for using DeGray Lake, I could have used San Antonio, was because it was a high value race and a great distance from southeast Louisiana. Again, sorry if I offended you or anyone else. Bob Sigerson Bob Sigerson   2/23/2003 15:13:42 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Chris, I really had only looked at the female results(and I took my shot from Olen, already) but after looking at the male results it is a perfect example of how the present system in inequitable. If Barry Knight had not crossed regional lines, you and Barkum Fulk would have picked up enough ranking points to beat out John Deshotel and Pen Clark in the regional rankings. The only head to head meeting I could find was Cajunman and John beat Barkum by almost 7 minutes and Pen beat Barkum by 4 1/2 minutes. Barry Knight, who I must say is very much in Brandon Marsh's league, was the standard I was talking about. If you use the kind of times he posted as the standard for every race in the region, everyone. Maybe noone, rd, board and individuals, wants to take the fortuitous nature of the rankings out of the equation becaues if I could receive the same ranking in a Mandeville,LA race as in a San Antonio race of the same value, why travel? I congratulate you on your race results and ranking as I know some of the people who finished behind you and they are fast. I just hope you understand the concept I am trying to get across. Bob Sigerson chris hunt 2/23/2003 17:12:45 RE: national rankings IP: Logged Message: Bob, thanks for the explanation, perhaps I had misinterpreted your intent. Let me comment on your criticisms of the rankings(not trying to argue, just to demonstrate another perspective). Our region is large and comprised of four states, the largest of course being texas. You make the point that it is not ideal to host a championship status race in Ok., or Ar. and your example is Degray Lake. Your rationale is that it is far from your SE La, Houston, or San Antonio, with the implication that it only becomes a quality race if that crowd participates, and that athletes from other regions are less capable. Let me say that there are fine, quality athletes from all over this region, not just that area. Oklahoma has Amanda Stevens(who won at Worlds), Carter Johnson, Jeff Staten, Bob Ford, Bernie Hand, David Lovell(not currently racing)and a host of others not mentioned for fear of creating too long a list. Arkansas has Dave Latourette, Baucum(not Barkum)Fulk, and others. My point is that we come from a wide area, not just the Austin/Houston crowd. I see no reason why we should not allow the chanpionship races to be spread around, even if it is Guymon OK(your ficticous example). I travel to Fl, Ks, Tx, La, and race some here in OK. We shouldn't just cater to one locale because it is a hub of triathlon activity and let everyone else travel. Isn't it the point to see new places and experience new stimuli, not just stay near home. I don't think that those who went to Degray were cherry picking for points, we were looking for good competition on a tough course(by the way, Barry set the course record this year with his slow time), at a event run very well. I don,'t think we can set a time standard such as decathlon, because our racing does not take place in a controlled environment in identical conditions, such as a track and field competition. I am not saying that our current system is without flaw, but that those who care about their ranking will race, and race where the points are. It is obvious that most do not care, as demonstrated by the fact that by my count, at the regional awards dinner, in the 25-29,30-34, and 35-39 male brackets combined(that comprise 41% of all ranked triathlets nationally) only three out of 15 individuals attended to pick up awards. By the way, congrats on your finishes and ranking this year, well done. <<Previous Page P 2 Next Page>>